Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1.e4 or 1.d4? (Read 31769 times)
Prince-Nez
Senior Member
****
Offline


Sic Transit Gloria Mundi

Posts: 251
Joined: 03/23/05
Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #21 - 05/15/05 at 19:25:37
Post Tools
Quote:
On the contrary I think 1. e4 is more work than 1. d4. The Queen's Gambit is much less to study than its 1. e4 equivalent: the ruy lopez and petroff. Just on the third move of the ruy alone, white needs to know what to do against the berlin, schliemann, classcal! Not to mention the open ruy, marshall, archangel, moller, etc. Most of which necessitate a different scheme of development. There does not exist strong but less theoretical options like the queen's gambit exchange, or 5. Bf4.

Another problem with 1. e4 is that White's advantage tends to dissipate very quickly with one or two inaccurate moves. While with 1. d4 White's space advantage seems to be more lasting, notwithstanding white making a couple of inaccuracies in the opening.


Well, you are slightly fast and loose with the facts, my friend.  d4 players get to play the exchange QGD but e4 players don't get to play the exchange Ruy or the Bishop's Opening?   The exchange Ruy can be quite effective at club level.

I'm no expert on the various QGD variations but does one really want to play the exchange (or some other short-cut line) against all of them?  If you don't, you must admit there are a lot of QGD variations.

Just a basic count:

e4: e5, CK, Sicilian, Pirc, Scandy, French and Alekhine

d4: QGD, QGA, Benoni, Benko, KID, Nimzo/QID, Grunfeld, Slav, Semi-Slav, Chigorin, Budapest...

What did I leave out?

I am probably being a little fast and loose myself  Grin  but I have asked this very question to a number of players (club players and masters) and the answer usually was d4 is more work.  Again, if you are playing open Sicilian the work load does increase significantly for e4.

The bottom line is both demand considerable work.

I also think that, in general, d4 is still more positional and e4 more tactical and thus, as you wrote, e4 players can lose their advantage quickly.  However, on the flip side, doesn't this mean that d4 players will often have to find more subtle ways to win and have very good technique to do so?  Technique that can be out of reach of most club players.
  

We work in the dark - we do what we can - we give what we have. Our doubt is our passion and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art. &&~ Henry James
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lnn2
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1504
Location: nc
Joined: 09/22/04
Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #20 - 05/15/05 at 18:28:10
Post Tools
On the contrary I think 1. e4 is more work than 1. d4. The Queen's Gambit is much less to study than its 1. e4 equivalent: the ruy lopez and petroff. Just on the third move of the ruy alone, white needs to know what to do against the berlin, schliemann, classcal! Not to mention the open ruy, marshall, archangel, moller, etc. Most of which necessitate a different scheme of development. There does not exist strong but less theoretical options like the queen's gambit exchange, or 5. Bf4.

Another problem with 1. e4 is that White's advantage tends to dissipate very quickly with one or two inaccurate moves. While with 1. d4 White's space advantage seems to be more lasting, notwithstanding white making a couple of inaccuracies in the opening.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Prince-Nez
Senior Member
****
Offline


Sic Transit Gloria Mundi

Posts: 251
Joined: 03/23/05
Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #19 - 05/15/05 at 16:49:29
Post Tools
It seems to me that d4 (I mean the Queen's Gambit not the Tromp, etc.,) requires much more work then e4.   That is as long as you don't play the open Sicilian.   There are simply more defenses to the Queen's Gambit then 1.e4.  Of course, club players really shouldn't worry about openings the way we do.   Some of us still can't help ourselves.  Grin
  

We work in the dark - we do what we can - we give what we have. Our doubt is our passion and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art. &&~ Henry James
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
basqueknight
Ex Member


Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #18 - 05/03/05 at 23:33:37
Post Tools
I would fear the King's Indian more than the sicilian but i see your point. I also play e4 in the QGA and i love the viloence. Kasparov is very mean in the QG and i used him as my inspiration. I am stuck though. Ive spent alot of time against the sicilian and what not i dont know if i want to give it up and this isnt jsut after the last post ive been arguing over it with my self for months. So i guess tournement practice will be the only way to tell. 1 with e4 and one with d4.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
volvo
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 7
Location: Melbourne
Joined: 02/11/05
Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #17 - 05/03/05 at 23:20:58
Post Tools
to quote John Nunn from Understanding Chess: Move by Move
"1 d4  This is one of the two most common first moves, the other being 1 e4. The view is sometimes expressed that 1 d4 is a more positional move than 1 e4. Actually I can't see much difference. There are many sharp openings after 1 d4, just as there are many quiet openings resulting from 1 e4."

When I read this it made such sense to me. I had been playing 1. e4 for six months after switching from 1 d4... I enjoyed the more active piece play I was getting but started thinking that  maybe I had just simply chosen boring lines with 1 d4. Now i'm back to 1 d4 and it feels right. I have started playing more active continuations like 4 f3 Nimzo, 3 e4 against QGA and so on. I think aggressive d4 players have the advantage of being less common that aggressive 1 e4 players... I could be wrong  but that's my feeling.

I never have to play against the french, caro cann, scandinavian, petrof or the sicialian ever again so I'm happy!



  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
basqueknight
Ex Member


Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #16 - 05/03/05 at 23:04:37
Post Tools
I like playing a reverse dutch! the only thing you have to worry about is froms gambit!

Somthing i enjoy playing and is perfectly viable is Larsens Opening 1. b3! its a flexible system and not at all a passive one. Fischer was a practioner of this opening a few times and as far as ive seen never lost with it.

The opening on the flank or in the center is what you make it. Depending on your mood. For instance i play a spanish. If i am feeling tired i wont play main line! I will play a less theoretical quiet variation on with d3 early. This is a quiet system which requires less calculation than say a main line with all the crazy tactics.

If im feeling really positional ill play 1.Nf3
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2330
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #15 - 05/02/05 at 21:21:43
Post Tools
Nobody has suggested 1 f4, and likely with good reason, but let me try to make a pitch.  It is a viable opening, rich in diverse possibilities, and short on published analysis.  This is a particular advantage in correspondence chess, where your opponents will have access to databases, books, and articles.  Moreover, if you run through a half dozen or so games in a database, one rapidly comes to the conclusion that many of its practitioners don't handle the Bird particularly well.  Another advantage here is that there is room for innovation and creative play, while also unsettling your opponent and preventing him/her from lashing out with some pet variation of the Sicilian, Nimzo, or what have you.

I've enjoyed some success with the Bird, but have yet to get under its skin.  I've been trying variations involving 1 f4, 2 d3, and 3 g3, before committing my knight to f3.  I can't report much of an advantage out of the opening, but I'm certainly not worse, and there are interesting possibilities for complications, not to mention some fascinating struggles for control of the middle of the board.
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
basqueknight
Ex Member


Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #14 - 05/02/05 at 19:12:17
Post Tools
Well i work at a store called target in the USA and i was noticing the vending machine. On e4 it had a snickers while on d4 it had tums! so clearley e4 is better than ints counter part.

But seriously i think that the questiong is a good one would you rather face a Sicilian or a Nimzo. I think personaly the nimzo looks pretty strange for black if white plays a classical main line with Qc2. In the sicilian its harder to keep up cause of the ever changing ideas but if you were to say play a Grand prix or other closed sicilian then you would side step alot of theory and if you played the kosten system you would really shock the black players.

In the end personal taste. I love the tactics that come after e4 and i will play that for most of my chess life. I still play 1.d4 or even 1.b3 if i am feeling posistional. Of course at the lecel im at it doesnt really matter some times you think the masters and experts have it good with the bigger prize fund but they also have to worry about knowing the latest 22nd move in the najdorf  Wink so if your an amature play what your heart says to play. I must admit even though i love e4 i am falling in love with the catalan. Cheesy
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10757
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #13 - 04/27/05 at 10:13:59
Post Tools
"This way you get 1. e4-type positions, without all the double-e-pawn variations"
Alas, 1.Nc3 Nf6! gives White not a very nice choice:
2.d4 d5 is Veresov.
2.e4 e5 is Vienna, a rather innocent double e-pawn opening.
2.f4 d5 is the Bird Opening.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
elspringer
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 170
Location: Gent
Joined: 03/26/04
Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #12 - 04/27/05 at 07:38:01
Post Tools
Perhaps you should consider 1. Nc3.
This way you get 1. e4-type positions, without all the double-e-pawn variations (except the Philidor, but that's not the reply that keeps you awake at night, right ,) and with most of the sicilians thrown out and reaching the 'standard' line at move 8 or 9 in the remaining ones...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
X
God Member
*****
Offline


Education is a system
of imposed ignorance.Chomsky

Posts: 571
Joined: 10/04/03
Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #11 - 04/17/05 at 11:07:40
Post Tools
I am facing a very similar problem with designing a complete repertoire.  I don't think the best solution is strictly following a narrow repertoire, as inevitably there will be certain positions that will not be appropriate in specific playing conditions.  I am beginning to think of the development of my repertoire in terms of several systems that are each appropriate to different circumstances or types of opponent.  For me, it difficult to narrow myself to one mode of opening systems, as a I have a broad interest.  (From your postal play, it seems that you have a broad interest also.)  Here's an example of a framework of systems I have considered.  You could think of each system as like a "gear" of a car, where lower gears are appropriate for lower speeds and higher gears for higher speeds.  (Though don't draw too many conclusions from the comparsion!  Smiley  )

Gear 1:
White:  (1.d4) Trompovsky (a Prie style repertoire)
Black:  Scandinavian, a6 Slav
Here each opening has a stylistic and structural similarity, and is efficient from the perspective of preparation and energy exerted over the board.  Of course, there are several drawbacks to playing this exclusively.  In some lines it might be difficult to beat weaker players, and against stronger players there are likely to be some "holes" in preparation due the improvisational nature of the openings.  I think this should be viewed as a back-up weapon that combines solidity with a small element of surpise.

Gear 2:
White:  (1.e4)  Rublevsky style; i.e. many of the lines Collins recommends his repertoire book (c3 Sicilian, Scotch, Panov-Botvinnik, Advance French)
Black:  Alekhine, Dutch Systems
In my opinion, the white repertoire is forceful from the white perspective and is excellent for efficiently beating weaker opposition.  The black systems are more ambitious than Gear 1, and likely offer better winning chances against weaker opposition.  In this system, it is very important to develop your own theory (especially as black).

The Gear 2 black openings carry a degree of risk, so it is good to a have a solid backup with the Gear 1 openings.  The Gear 2 white openings sometimes have the drawback of being too forceful, so it is sometimes good to have a system that is more improvisational to generate winning chances against well-prepared opposition.

"Higher gear" opening systems (i.e. main line openings) may be developed with postal play and independent analysis, and may at some point be used interchangeably with the lower gears:

Gear 3:
White: 1.d4 (Positional, Palliser style as in "Play d4")
Black:  Najdorf, Nimzo, QID
The white systems can be adopted at an early stage with Gear 1, especially against 1...d5.

Gear 4:
White: 1.e4 (main line, as in the Anand repertoire by Khalifman)
Black:  Scheveningen Najdorf, KID, Benoni

Gear 3 complements Gear 1, and Gear 4 complements Gear 2.
  

Power to the People!&&http://www.gravel2008.us/           http://www.nationalinitiative.us/&&Mike Gravel for President 2008
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Alias
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1512
Location: East of the river Svartån
Joined: 11/19/04
Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #10 - 04/17/05 at 01:10:12
Post Tools
I'm not so sure the comparisons are that relevant. Chess is a complex game and even small differences can make huge differences.

The first comparison (Nimzo/Sicilian) was more of the two openings that had the best reputation.

I think it's about time (rating wise) I have a proper repertoire that I can use for years to come without changing it too much too often. The problem is that I don't have much to fall back on. My e4 days wasn't good theoretically. Changing the first move as white requires a lot of work. It'll probably take a long time before I'm ready to play the new repertoire OTB.

My problem when studying openings is that I very easily get discouraged. If I see a line that I'm not comfortable with and can't work out a fix easily I often start looking at a completely different variation.

Yesterday I looked at many Rublevsky games. He seems to have a rather narrow e4 repertoire which I thought I could copy. While many of the games were fantastic, I got a bit discouraged by some lines.

So started to look at 1.d4 again. It seems that the exchange variation with Nge2 in the QGD gives the best chances. The amount of theory seems not too big. I then have to play the Nimzo instead of QI, so I had a look at Qc2. At the moment I'm okay with this. If you wait a week or two I'm probably back at studying 1.e4.

Several of my team mates thinks I'm a d4-player, by the way.
  

Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The King
Full Member
***
Offline


Give me convenience or
give me death

Posts: 173
Location: Dublin
Joined: 01/08/05
Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #9 - 04/15/05 at 08:33:13
Post Tools
Yeah, the more comparisons I see the more I want to play 1.d4!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #8 - 04/15/05 at 07:44:38
Post Tools
If you're gonna compare like that, there are some others:
Slav- Caro Kann(similar black set-up)
French-Nimzo (I find the black play often similar, blocked positions, Bb4 and often play on the same centre fields)
KI-Pirc (similar black set-up)
Dutch-classical sicilian (not sure what to compare with the dutch, so just based on flexibility)
Benoni-dragon (pressure by the Bg7 bishop, while being vulnerable on the kingside)
Scandi-Budapest (open center, with little space advantage for white)
Petrov-Old indian/stonewall/Czech benoni?
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lnn2
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1504
Location: nc
Joined: 09/22/04
Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #7 - 04/15/05 at 06:21:07
Post Tools
hello king, i'm glad the comparison helped!

Here are some others for your consideration, which opening would you rather face as white? :

Albin Countergambit = Scandinavian (the 2... Nf6 type)

Grunfeld = Sveshnikov sicilian (for the obssesive black focus on piece activity, and the amount of theory) 

Benko = Accelerated Dragon (for Black's solid position and his annoying dark squared bishop)

Tromp/Torre= anti sicilians. I like the Tromp more than any anti-sicilian Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo